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Hello, Pat. How are you? Hello, Small Talk. I'm very well thanks.
So, you've got a show on Radio 5 Live next Tuesday called The Perfect 10. What's it about? Well the concept originally came when I was watching England get knocked out of the World Cup, and they had to make a change because it wasn't working, and it struck me that they didn't have anyone who was going to make a huge difference. They brought on Joe Cole, who was seen as a great hope and now is more adaptable whereas other countries would have this more central player that they could channel things through, usually a more skilful player. Down the years, players like Pelé, through to Zinedine Zidane, Xavi and Lionel Messi, are being created around the world. Places like Argentina produce them all the time, so do Brazil. Even Germany have got theirs, and there are others. So why on earth, I wondered, don't we create them to the same level? We certainly create guys who are capable of that and have the skills. I wanted to ask various people in the game from various countries why we have stopped doing that and I got a variety of answers.
Who have you spoken to? Trevor Brooking, Ossie Ardiles ... I'm going to meet Roberto Martínez today. I've spoken to a lot of people personally as well, about why we do, why we don't. There seems to be a whole raft of reasons for it. Having played the game myself, it would have been a position I would have seen myself in when I came into the game, but I was quite quickly stuck out on the wing and I'd never really played on the wing before I came to Chelsea.
Do you think it would have been different if you had played in a foreign country? I certainly would have been tried more in that position. I would have hoped I would have been good enough to do it. But not many teams played with those systems for a period of time, they didn't play in the gaps between those lines a lot and some of us felt there were gaps there. I'd often say to a manager that I'd had an idea I could play there and more often than not the line would be 'Oh, you wanna play in the cheat's position, do ya' – you wouldn't have to defend, you'd just attack. Whereas in other cultures, like Argentina, Ardiles said that's not the cheat's position, that's the absolute core of the team, the player who's certainly the most creative. The best player, the one that's going to be able to see everything. Our technique was just to go for power and pace and certainly there was a period during the late 80s, early 90s and even through parts of the Premier League where that's what was produced. Is that because it's what the managers wanted or because it's easier? To produce one of those more cultured players like a David Silva takes 10-15 years. Did we not do that? But the teams who wanted to play like that bought those players. You bought Zola or Cantona.
Should Joe Cole have been that player? If you ask his coaches when he was younger, they would have argued that he was the most skilful player they'd worked with but at Chelsea he was out on the wing because José Mourinho played a 4-3-3. Instead of producing these players, it would be, 'Oh he's not doing it every week, stick him out on the wing'.
Does there need to be more understanding to these players? Well I know I do, but that's only me. But that's the part of the game I like, that I tried to play. My favourites have always been these sort of players. All the teams who are successful on a world level have all got one, whether it be Zidane, whether it be Cruyff. They all had that one thing in common: they were creative, Maradona being the best example of it. He almost won the league on his own for Napoli and was completely pivotal to Argentina in the World Cup. For a lot of countries, it is unacceptable to not have someone in that position. Culturally the UK just didn't seem to agree with that. Barcelona have three playing at the same time! And it's extraordinary. People have been saying that the Premier League is the best in the world, but hang on, England haven't been winning anything. In my time, I felt there was a correlation between that and teams increasing power.
Well, you were rejected by Celtic for being too small … Well it was more subtle than that. I think a better example is when I was at Everton at the age of 27 or 28, playing the best football of my career and I was leaving. Four of five years before I was playing at Chelsea and suddenly that kind of player wasn't wanted any more. The teams would power up, Wimbledon would power up, and they would just beat you with set-pieces. You'd play Wimbledon and your manager wouldn't play his best team, he would play his most powerful team and that was counter-productive. Under Martin O'Neill Celtic had a good team, but you looked at the team and there was Varga, Valgaeren, Baldé, Hartson and Sutton. And even Larsson was good in the air. Six guys and their average height was 6ft 2in. You try playing against that. Barcelona have a good way of doing it: don't give them the ball.
It doesn't seem to be a problem for the foreign players though. There's an adaptation to it. They've been allowed to develop to that level. David Silva was stuck out on the wing for Manchester City at the start. Mancini, being a No10, understood he needed to be more pivotal. He's been my favourite player, he's the best technical player. Modric is close, but Silva's the best. I got laughed at for suggesting that in his early days. The sadness is one club has tried to do it properly and they haven't won anything for six years. But Arsenal may have further problems than just that.
It's a case of balance … Yeah, there has to be. There's nothing wrong with being a powerful team. Whatever way you play is the 'right way' if you win. I like the beauty of football, the artistry, that's why I was interested in it. I watched Brazil in 1970, and that's how you should play football, that's what you should aim for. But there's more than one way to play and there's a grudging respect for what Stoke do. And a grudging understanding for what Wimbledon did.
Without these players do England have a hope? No.
[Small Talk's heart sinks] We need it.
Even though England are the fourth best team in the world? [Laughs] Yes! Spain are miles ahead. But I don't think Britain can't produce those players. They are there.
Do you think they're there now? Someone like Jack Wilshere? Yes, and the England Under-19s have a lot of fantastic players. And Tom Cleverley looks like he could do that. If there's one player who could be world class in that position, it's Wayne Rooney, but he's played at centre forward or on the wing.
Are these players wasted though? Look at Glenn Hoddle or Matt Le Tissier ... Ah, Matt Le Tissier. How many games did he get for England? He was seen as a lazy player. But he was extraordinarily talented. Hoddle maybe more so. I'd argue he was the last great No10 England have produced. Gascoigne could have, but he played more as a midfielder. The other one who could have done it was Peter Beardsley. He was extraordinary, but his name never comes up. I played with Peter at Everton and I would call him a great player. Not good – great.
You're a Chelsea fan, aren't you? I like all my old clubs - Chelsea, Everton ... I have a season ticket at Hibernian for the pure love of their concept of the game.
Did you fall out of love with Celtic? That was for a different reason. That was all to do with the sectarianism. I have no great dislike or hatred, you don't have that about a club you supported for 35 years, but I found myself sitting beside people who were saying things that I was very uncomfortable with politically and morally.
Will the issue ever be resolved? I'm speaking in Scottish parliament in two weeks' time about that. I'm very involved in a discussion in Scotland about that. I kind of relate that to when I signed for Chelsea in 1983 and I was the first footballer to speak out about racism. I don't accept it. It's got no place in football.
How was that taken by the fans? I come from an educational background and I'm a bit of a leftie. I was on anti-apartheid marches and all that sort of stuff, and then I turn up at Chelsea and they're booing their own player, a black player called Paul Canoville. I scored the winning goal that day against Crystal Palace. Afterwards I said 'I'm not talking to the press about football, I'm just disgusted that the fans were booing the player', knowing the headlines that would get. There was a bit of stick from people within the club. They were saying 'It's not your place to do that'. Now that seems strange. But that was the culture at the time.
It's different now here … Yes, it's not acceptable here any more, and if I played a small part in that, I'm proud of it. The argument some Chelsea and Rangers fans have against me is that it's not religious bigotry, it's cultural identity, and then it becomes sectarianism, and then it's a semantic argument about what that is and what it isn't.
You were a very different kind of footballer for the 80s and you probably still are. Was that difficult? No, I was just confident in myself really. I was studying and doing a degree beforehand. I had a big help that other footballers didn't have. If I failed at football, there was other things that I could do. I had that luxury and others didn't.
Were you not subbed once at half-time in a friendly to attend a gig? [Sheepish] Correct, yes.
What was the gig? Erm, it was Cocteau Twins, but I was a big music fan, I liked to DJ. But it's not as mad as it sounds, it was the last pre-season game against Brentford and I was just about to sign a new contract. The manager knew I was conscientious. I wasn't being flippant.
NME called you the "first post-punk footballer" … I'm not sure what that meant.
Small Talk isn't either. Maybe you're the only post-punk footballer? It was just a cultural thing at the time because I was such a muso. I just happened to listen to The Fall or Joy Division at the time, but I didn't feel better in any way. It was just a cultural difference. Everyone's got their interests. I felt that made me normal as opposed to making me strange and I still feel that way.
You drank with George Melley, didn't you? Ha! Melley! There's a funny story behind this. I was asked to go on A Question of Sport and I'm crap at sport, so when I was asked to do the art version of it, that was right up my street. George was one of the team leaders on it. That meant going over to Bristol to do it and spending the night drinking. I'm not a big drinker but an evening out with George Melley … The only club membership I had was at Ronnie Scott's because it was a cool place to hang out and he played down there sometimes. And what a guy to spend some time with.
And you were friends with John Peel … Yeah. My hero when I grew up really. I was writing for a Chelsea newspaper, writing a music column obviously, and I wrote to John saying that I worked for a small newspaper in west London and could I have an interview? He wrote back saying he was a bit busy, and for the first, last and only time in my life I wrote back saying 'It's just because my team are playing your team Liverpool in a few weeks' which was the subtlest version of 'Do you know who I am' you've ever heard in your life! John wrote back and we met up and we just ended up going to gigs together and became good friends. Great man. He would in no way ever let you down.
Would you ever have been on Twitter? Oh no, because I hate any kind of celebrity. I hate the word with a passion. I work in the media now and talk about football. I played football because I liked it. I do things in the media that are specifically orientated towards the job and hopefully I have something to say about it. The punditry is not there to say 'I'm great, I'm smart', it's hopefully to enlighten people.
Do you think there are pundits who do that? Of course there are and some of them are the most successful. It just happens not to be me. It's hopefully educational in some way. There's no point me coming on and saying 'Oh, that hit the post' and everybody can see it. I want to come on and say: 'I played a bit. You might not have noticed this, but keep an eye on this'.
Is the punditry in this country good enough? There are different levels. I love using technology and I tend to do it on Channel 5 and I get 42 seconds at half-time, while I look at someone like Gary Neville and he's got a huge amount of time after the game. Now I don't do jealousy but if I ever did I'd love to be able to do that. I've never really had the opportunity to do that. I'm grateful to have that job but I'd love to have a wider platform to do that.
What have you made of Neville's start? Fabulous use of technology. Very good insights. I liked those. There will be a number of people who say he's not hard enough on Manchester United. We'll find out when they have a crap game. I suspect he'll be fine. I quite want to see if he'll say something strong enough to upset Sir Alex. I suspect he will.
What would you put in Room 101? [Long pause] ... We'll make it a football one. I managed to go through a career playing 800 professional games and didn't dive once. I would put cheats in there and I'd call them diving cheats. I had an idea I pitched to somebody that on Match of the Day they should have Cheat of the Month because that would stop them.
Small Talk assumes that was knocked back. Er, I haven't heard back from them.
What's your favourite TV show? I'm not a big television watcher.
You can say Match of the Day if you want. Not really. I watch it because it's my job. I wouldn't rush home to see it. I'm more of a radio fan. I have to say Danny Baker's show is pure genius. It was the happiest day when I heard he was coming back to 5 Live. I let out a yelp of delight. He's a genius.
What's your favourite album? Probably Underachievers Please Try Harder by Camera Obscura.
Who would win a fight between a lion and a tiger? Don't care.
Not at all? No.
If it meant you could have Cheat of the Month on Match of the Day? [A little too quickly for someone who doesn't care] Tiger.
Who's your favourite author? I loved French and Russian literature when I was younger but then I grew out of it and went into a period of Hunter S Thompson. But for the pure love of the English language, it's got to be PG Wodehouse.
A good choice. Small Talk approves. Can you tell us a joke? A repeatable joke?
Preferably. Two lions are walking down Oxford Street at 3 o'clock on a Saturday afternoon and one lion says to the other lion 'I thought you said it was busy down here'.
Small Talk might nick that one. Thanks for your time, Pat. Bye! Thanks Small Talk! Bye!